Getting the final vocal
Post replySaturday 1 Jul 2017, 10:06pm
I wondered if anybody out there had any advice on recording vocals. I have recently started recording vocals on a band project. We have demos and have done live performances but now for the studio EP it's another level and needs to be "perfect"
The band are in the mind that the vocals have to be perfect and despite my vocals working live I can't seem to get "THE" perfect take for any of it. I keep being told "you can do better" and it's driving me insane. I sing harder it sounds forced I sing softer it's too quiet, I feel like I'm putting on a voice In parts or sound to affected in others. What is the secret to getting the absolute final take? Is it simply running out of time? Do we ever get a take we feel truly happy with or is that not possible due to our own constant doubt about creative works.
If left to my own devices I'll record the entire track, mix it, listen to it, love it and then feel completely different the next day so redo it. It's never right
What can I do?
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 9:31am
Get yourself a first-class engineer with a great 'ear'.
When you go into studio, make sure all the background work has been done. Then is NOT the time to start discussing chords or riffs - it's costing you.
If you really can't get it right in the first 3 takes, forget it . It'll only get worse. Usually the 2nd take is the best. If you're initially happy, TAKE IT, don't try & improve on what can't be improved upon. Just leave it alone.
Yes, there'll be future times when you play it back and think "I could've done this ..." But you didn't, so accept it.
Unless, of course, you're on an endless budget, and then the world's your lobster.
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 10:04am
BobQ is right.
Spend your money on a good engineer and if you are short. of money pick a cheaper studio,
A good engineer can make you sound top dog in a crap studio but a poor engineer no matter how good the studio will be a less than perfect job.
The default studio Guy is not a good engineer (generally)
As the work is done, a good sound engineer or producer may be able to tweak the mix! Get one on an assessment of what you have done, if they can tweet your in luck if not you will have to re do some parts under the sound engineer god you get in's advice.
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 12:26pm
Unfortunately no engineer is gonna turn a less than stellar vocal into anything else.... there's just no 'talent' plugin or effect unit out there...... we all wish their was!
Yes a great room/mic/preamp/converter chain will help to capture a great vocal performance, unfortunately it won't miraculously transform a less than stellar one, that comes from the vocalist/singer and if they don't have it then that's just how it is.
Some good advice above re capturing a performance, most engineers i know tend to hit record from the moment the talent steps in front of the mic as very often when they think they're just rehearsing a take they're at their most relaxed and unguarded, failing that yes the 1st or 2nd takes are generally the best.
Some people are amazing live and dire in the studio and vice versa, i think this is especially true for singers and vocalists.
Perhaps you need to be more relaxed or develop a different mind set for the studio as multi tracking is often radically different experience to playing live with an ensemble?
Have the other guys said exactly what it is that they feel isn't right? you mention that singing softer is 'too quiet', that's what compression and balancing are for, unless of course what's needed is the tone of a vocal being sung hard..... lots of possible reasons....
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 12:59pm
The band are being idiots. What's perfect? Not them.
You're under pressure and each take gets further and further away from your best. If you're not good enough, why aren't they singing lead? You're better than they are, or you wouldn't be doing it.
The best take is most often the second one. Try recording your vox whilst they play. You need to get the recording to be as near live as you can, as that's what you're used to. Or find another band.
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 1:47pm
Maybe its the pressure of the band wanting something more that only they know in their pedantic mind that's tensing you up and inhibiting you from giving a good natural performance. The sites resident's Funker actually talks sense no engineer or studio mix can make gold out of rubbish. Something which a number of the current generation of musicians are finding out the hard way and performers like Adele are finding out that it was a bad idea to stick to specific set of keys and tone. You need to build your range and have compassion for the song and genre if you want to be a good all rounder , but not even all great singers can or have to do that Oatis Redding , Rod Stewart , Rob Halford and others all exhaled in their genre type of music to perfection but I doubt they could have lifted each others songs without having to remake it to suit their style. You probably have a certain style which works well in some types of songs and keys and not in others. Play to your strengths. You don't say whether this is an original composition or a cover if its a cover at least their is a reference point if is an original then its harder to ascertain but if its written by the ones who are pulling you , get them to sing a sketch version of what they are looking for if they are so sure they now what they want. If they can't tell em where to go . Perhaps working on the music in your spare time singing alone a few times away from the pressure of your bandmates and the sweaty confines of a studio might inspire you to come up with something worth building on.
Its very important to stay relaxed and emotional when your singing like you might after smoking a certain something or a few drinks your the one who has to convey the story or idea and convey the emotion. Your bandmates should really be giving you more to go on and be more empathetic and supportive and also have a sense by now of what type of song key and music suits your vocal range. Asking you to sing like Aretha Franklin if you've been singing Metallica type music up to now is just ridiculous.
If your singing in key and at the right pitch you've done the basic's as the singer of the band you should have the luxury to interpret the lyrics how you want. If they don't like it the back seat driver can sing it , you can walk or the band need to find another singer.
X51 is right no one is perfect very few bands are perfect individualy its the collective which makes it great usually , what I find these days is individually band mates have little respect for their fellow members and are looking for a clone of their fav route singer guitarist as they sound on record. Its the fakeness of the internet which has deluded a lot of people about the realities of working and building things from the ground up.
Also a lot of bands today are dominated by the ones who moan critics the loudest and constantly so running the show you need to be assertive in your own talents and know your own strength and weakness otherwise they will have you running all over the place on loop.
Keep Singing
TD
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 1:57pm
PS if you know any other reputable musicians and engineers or people with a good listening ear , get them to have a listen and a feedback , this is a unregulated industry your bandmates might be talking bollocks , and in the interim
you could be doing those singing noodles some serious damage by ploughing away for an obscure and undefined target.
If they think you can do better and you feel you've given out all you can give then demand that they show you themselves by manning up to the mike and showing you how better sounds . Get them to play you a recording of the artist or performer they have in their mind when their on their standards soap box and they you can tell them whether you can do that or not and if not you'll have to do it in your own way.
Keep Singing
TD
Sunday 2 Jul 2017, 2:05pm
Perhaps it might also help if you upload the track via Soundcloud and got the guys on here to have a listen and feedback to you. More food for thought even if you shouldn't necessarily differ to their opinion at least those interested would be coming from a well intentioned neutral angle and in some cases from an experienced background and could perhaps make some suggestions.
That might help you ?
TD
Tuesday 4 Jul 2017, 12:42pm
I saw an ad in a shop window, asking for a singer with the 'energy of Roth and the talent of Coverdale'. Good luck finding that in Lowestoft—or anywhere else.
Wednesday 5 Jul 2017, 8:32am
All the above are correct you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
But you said your voice was OK live.... So your voice would seems fit for purpose.
Even your famous vocalists have a little help in the studio.
So some aspects of vocals can be made better,
-Double tracking to thicken a thin voice
-Reverb to ad ambiance
-Pitch correction for the odd missed note
-Mic placement, chorus, compression, EQ etc Can help...
A good engineer would know how and what to use.
So I re iterate, get the opinion of a good engineer.
If his opinion is the problem is you, then you may need a vocal coach.
If he can sort the vocal track by tweeting or re-recording, great.
If it's over critical band mates he may be able to quel the crap.
Vocal recording is an art, and a particular voice is an acquired tast.
Wednesday 5 Jul 2017, 10:05am
and a particular voice is an acquired tast , especially in rock music where there is no correct way to sing a song unless it in key and sounds right.
Also I find a lot of people expect the singer to sing the song tone for tone like the original each singer has her/his own style the voice is the most distinctive instrument of the lot effects and tools can't change it to sound like someone else.
Make the best of what you got singers of limited range and ability like Hugh Cornwall and Jagger know this and hone the song to fit their vocal.
TD
Wednesday 5 Jul 2017, 10:32pm
I'd put my two-penneth of advice/suggestions in for what its worth if I thought for one minute the OP was actually reading the replies. Hey ho.
Friday 7 Jul 2017, 7:43pm
oh I've been reading the responses. Whadya think I've been too busy throwing TV's out of hotel windows to check on this post? I check it every 2 hours. Its great advice.
I'll describe the problem in more detail
I have learned how to mix and produce myself. I have some reasonable equipment for recording vocals and other instruments at home. I think honestly the main problem is that I'm too quiet at home. I am very aware - living in a terraced house - of my neighbours. I usually wait till at least one side of my neighbours is out ( I live in the middle house) and point my voice towards the empty house. My wife rather helpfully pointed out that 'you can hear that all the way down the street' So I'm very aware of being too loud and doing too many takes. Which really inhibits my performance.
When I go to a studio for a short period of time to record I end up wrecking my voice. At home I'd sit down have a cup of tea and relax till it recovered then go do more takes, at the studio I go, blast out what I can and then go home. So far I've gotten a few recordings of the song but the 'final' take is yet to happen. I am double tracking the vocals. I will hopefully finish this stuff off on...Tuesday at home in the middle of the day and link it here. See what you think. The advice I was given by the drummer and producer of the EP is 'do each line separately, as loud as you can as the takes where I was just doing a live performance of it were too 'soft'
Saturday 8 Jul 2017, 10:22am
You've just answered your own question basically....
You're feeling too inhibited to record at home because of noise spillage... fair enough, sound proofing is pretty expensive and requires structural work generally so how about recording at one of the other band members' place? They could engineer for you too which would take some more pressure off.
The other thing is you stated when you go into a studio you end up wrecking your voice..... this means you're not singing correctly and every time you do this you risk serious damage to your vocal chords, it's just happened to Adele, it ruined Paul Young's career, plenty of others have had surgery for it (rod stewart and elton john spring to mind) i know someone personally it's happened to so go and get yourself a vocal coach.
A decent coach will work with your voice and not try to change the character... can take time to find the right one though.
I LOVE working with trained vocalists, they're just so much easier to work with in general... they know what their voices are capable of and will have a warm up routine before they start so their voice doesn't conk out part way through... also the sound of their voice doesn't change too much as the session goes on either so you also get consistency.
Singing, especially loudly, puts enormous strain on the vocal chords so decent technique and a good warmup are pretty much essential if you want to consistently get a great performance and ensure your voice lasts your lifetime. You never see a runner not warming up before running a marathon or pretty much any other athlete before they train or compete as they risk injury pushing themselves 'cold'..... same for vocals. Many other instrumentalists prefer to warm up before they play too, i always used to run through some scales and arps for 20 mins which i found a great help.
HTH
Saturday 8 Jul 2017, 10:43am
Dave, check out Tona De Brett's site...there's some excellent advice on her site.
Saturday 8 Jul 2017, 6:15pm
You can't learn to sing off the net...
Van- funk is correct, if you are straining when you sing you need a vocal coach, to sing it should be relatively effort less and that's technique, even screems and metal type vocals it's technique not bellowing.
Full bodied vocals, yep you guested it technique.
And no it's not letting the side down going to a coach, all the pros do it.
Sunday 9 Jul 2017, 10:24am
[quote="profusia"]I'd put my two-penneth of advice/suggestions in for what its worth if I thought for one minute the OP was actually reading the replies. Hey ho.[/quote]
Take no notice of the sites Hilda Ogden in residence mate , People on here are to quick to call it before the final score.
Spending money on vocal coaches and lessons like Stafords answer to Rick Rubin and others implore. Is also a bit deluded in the hope that it will fix the problem. I mean its bloody typical that people think today that you can get the perfect body , perfect voice , perfect life by throwing a few notes into some know all's swelling bank account. The short and sharp of it son is no one can make you sound like Glen Hughes
if you haven't got it in you. Any one in this country can set themselves up as a vocal coach in this country
without rhyme or reason at the minimum they only need to pass a CRB test and other character related gumf before they can tout their questionable talents (normally you will pay £30 an hour to take the risk and found out ) People have a throw money attitude around these days to a lot of people considering the cost of living the tax payers ransom known as council tax not to mention if their struggling on the dole. £30 Queens sheets are sacred to the kitty.
You say your wife tells you she can hear you up the road ! however what does she expect she took up with a singer ? You need to ware the trousers on this one mate. It amazes me how non musician just equite music with a final often perfected recording and not the toil and sweet that goes into making it happen.
Thankfully we do not live in a day and age like only twenty years ago when a struggling musician needed to rely on such teachers or track down static books to gain further knowledge if they could not learn from the music itself. There are countless free lessons on the internet specially you tube where you can get basic pointers and help , such as Ken Tamplin vocal academy (which is good if your a rock metal type singer )
Yes he comes on like a bit of a pusher trying to sell his wares(private lessons ) but he's put out enough free pointers that seem to be in the same ball park as what your asking mate.
Also the Von Funker is wrong when he says its the done thing to warm up before a jog. As some one who plays Saturday league and trains with a team when we are not on the pitch or the piss. )
The stretches and warm ups are done after the physical activity even my GP suggests the same thing.
Practising at a bandmates house does not sound like it is going to be good at this stage especially if you are struggling to deliver what they want and it does not (correct me if I'm wrong ) sound like they are being very helpful.
Were you hired by this band for a fee to perform on a track or as a member think about that one.
If you don't already have an acoustic guitar get one a sing to each note on a daily basis for ten minutes trying out diffirent pitches learn the basics that you need to do this if you don't already know the guitar.
Having an acoustic in the will help you as a singer and if you want to be a songwriter.
You say that your are inhibited by your neighbours perhaps inhabitants are the root of your problem.
I think the bathroom is usually the best place to really test singing due to the acoustics being good its also good for recording , obviously not just after someones been. Keep a can of air freshener handy and you've found your own little free studio.
I also think you should forget about neighbours for a while a certain amount of noise is no legal gripe and if you were to practice your singing a couple of hours at a reasonable time of day then there is very little they can do also are you telling me you do not hear their noise spill on occasion its give and take living in close proximity. If you want to be really politically correct you could go over and explain your situation and ask them when its best for them. However I would not bother my neighbours were stemming and having a raucous party on a hot July Tuesday a few years back from midnight to 7am the next morning.
The plods never done nothing and the council generally don't get off their backside until the thing escalates
to blood let point. So you should be fine as long as your not going nuts with a PA system.
Have you got any software if not download something like Midi do your own tinkering with your vocals.
Think of the noises babies make the shape they make with their mouths make similar shapes when trying to hit belter phase.
A perfect vocal does not neceserly result in a cracking track ,
You should analyse your own voice think of your strengths and weakness's and start perfecting your performances around that it worked for ol blue eyes and today he is regarded as one of the best vocalists in history.
Also drink teas such as mint , stay away from coffee and when your in the boozer start drinking Port.
Diet can have an impact if your eating a lot of dairy and drinking loads of beer as most of us do in this country your working against your pipes
Most drummers are either failed :{ or aspiring singer's :} its sounds quit possible that your drummer is one of those. Has it ever crossed your mind that he might want you out so he can pull a Phil Collins ?
Like I said in last weeks sermon of advice you need to be tough with your bandmates and completely honest with yourself. Chances are if you were a good female singer they would be bending over backwards by now to alter the key and change the song to fit your talent's granted it might have something to do with wanting to be the first to get their leg over buts that fodder for another topic altogether.
Because it sounds like all lads together a fair number of men in a team situation like to put the heat on their bandmate it sounds like they are going to continue to stress you out.
You need to know what you can and can't do well practice and working in your own time can help a great deal but like I said unless they can show you a recorded track of what their blabbering on about its all bollocks.
Mick Jagger would not put up with neither would Van Morrison and they certainly would not have gone to a singing teacher for private tuition when they were starting out or before they were loaded and made men in the industry.
As a singer you need to have plenty of attitude and be working on your own style , as said last week bands today don't respect each other and work within whats there most are looking for some pedantic perfection and favour that over getting a tight set list together and gigging. As you can see from some of the responses on threads like this the music and observing the music scene today the game today is now dominated by suits looking for a side earner , middle class kids who didn't want to do a white collar internship at their dads pals conststiany office and people who only know how to operate effectively in a world where linkdin is their kingpin.
your their bandmate not a slave on their cargo ship. Do you push the guitarist to sound a certain way or
the other bandmates ? if the answer is no sounds like the band is starting to splinter into them and you
usually most bands have on sanctimonious ego chatting bollocks and calling the shoots such is life today being opinionated is seen as being wrong due to so many failed white collar professionals dominating the music scene. Due to this most bands are one ego and three yes men.
Take music back son. If its a band everyone own's their spot or should aspire to not be lectured by one man bandleaders are for Jazz , pop novelty assembly lines or studio creators.
Just remember your not a slave on a cargo ship history has moved on but far too often man still tries to inslave his fellow human in any form he can. Whether it psychological or through economic possibility.
your a free man in a free band chances are they might f;';';'ck you off even if you keep trying and fail to hit their undefined mark so call your own shots otherwise I can forsee this problem will repeat in any new band you wind up with.
I'm sure the usual clowns on here will tear into my spelling and grammar with this one but I'm a busy man and a musician not a English literature graduate or aspiring to be a typist who gets bend over for a bonus so get over yourselves
TD
Monday 10 Jul 2017, 7:49am
God damn that's some good advice. A thoroughly enjoyable and thought provoking read. When I go into my makeshift vocal booth tomorrow I shall have those words ringing out in my ears.
it's stupid to record quietly because it will always be a waste of time and if you can hear me quietly singing down the street you might as well hear me singing well. I don't want to wreck my voice but also cannot figure out in time how to do these thrash vocals without straining at all.
Neighbours haven't complained in the 2 years I've been recording all kinds of music at home and I do try to do it in the middle of a weekday to minimise the amount of irritation
I went to a singing teacher 10 years ago who taught me how to sing using my diaphragm, which was mind blowing at the time, then I went to one about 6 months ago who confirmed that I had been breathing wrong and could maximise my vocal abilities if I breathe properly. He also told me to mark on the lyrics sheet where to take a breath. He also advised against the high note in the song I'm still trying to record because it is way too high. I didn't go back for a second lesson from him because it was £18 for half an hour and ain't nobody got that kind of money
You'll all hear tomorrow hopefully
Cheers
Monday 10 Jul 2017, 8:27am
@ KTM....no but you can improve your breathing technique with a few simple vocal and physical exercises. That's all a coach will give you for your first £30 and probably your next £30 as well.
Monday 10 Jul 2017, 2:25pm
Ah welcome back to your own thread Dave. Nice of you to pop in lol
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