In tune or out of tune
Post replyTuesday 10 Jan 2017, 9:00pm
Sorry if the title is a bit cryptic or misleading but hard to know what to call this. Thought I'd pose a slightly different question to the norm and see if anyone had any similar experiences or answers...
So first off I'm not a singer. However, I do write (melody, chord progressions, lyrics), and so I record my vocals on tracks to demo them to singers, and for them to learn the songs from. However, I often find that what seemed in tune when I sang it (within reason given my vocal limitations) often sounds horrendously out of tune when I play it back afterwards.
Then I discovered something which fascinates me... my vocals can sound more in tune when the whole track is played back through certain speakers/earphones. In fact I sound more in tune when played back through anything with plenty of bass and not too much treble.
So if I listen to something through my laptop speakers my vocals sound awfully out of tune, whereas through my favourite headphones it sounds pretty good (for me at least bearing in mind my vocal incompetence). A different pair of headphones definitely not so good, but earphones and I'm Harry Belafonte (well you know what I mean). My powered PC speakers make me sound pretty rough too unless I turn the bass up and the treble down and then magically I come into tune.
Is this a commonplace thing?
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 9:16pm
Without hearing for myself, that's hard to say why that's happening. I've not had that happen the way you say it—out of tune when played through some speakers—but I have hated how I've sounded on playback.
Hearing our voices played back can be like hating seeing our photos; we hate it being different to how we hear it live. Nobody else thinks we look/sound awful in the recording or photo; that's how they've always known it.
Some folk have oversensitive hearing that lets them hear ultrasound. Maybe you're one of them. If so, you're hearing out-of-tune freqs that the rest of us will never hear.
But no, not widespread.
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 9:47pm
Hating my photo is a whole other topic! lol
I can actually quite like my voice when listened to through the right device (that's not saying its commercial but I can more than live with it), but switch speakers/headphones or turn the treble up and its honestly awful.
Its kind of depressing when you listen to something and think its not half bad, and email it to someone, and then the next time you listen to it yourself on something different you realise how bad it can sound and that you've no idea what kind of set up the other person may have listened to it on - aaarrrghhhh! lol
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 10:02pm
Do you go out of tune at those settings, or does the tone sound bad?
Yeah, it would be a downer.
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 10:09pm
Being in tune is only half of the problem for singers having the right pitch and tone for the song is equally important imo. I'mean you could be in tune doing a Bruce Dick impersanation over a jazz number but it might sound revloting due to a mis match of sound and style.
I agree the voice is a very personal and sensitive instrument unlike a instrument constructed by design you can't go out and buy another set of vocals you have what you were born with and whatever it turned into in puberty.
Though as your a horn player I thought you would have a good set of lungs , you might even have the right know how since I'm guessing horn players have to sustain , add or subtract strength on ocassion push and and down. Download singsharp from the net its free and can be used on a smartphone etc it lets you know the notes you are hitting also try and work out whether your naturally a baritone type singer or
a more of a tenor head voice type. Then you might be able to see some starting and blocking points.
As well as checking out some vocal coaches on you tube study Sinatra who worked his tubes like they were a constructed instrument in a jazz ochestra.
Computer software can be a gift and a hinderence in conveying the recorded voice , get someone to listen to some tracks even better if they have recording experience.
Once your confident sing a few lines to someone in your band see what they think then take it from there. just study the style of singing you want to eliminate it's genre has its own set of unwritten etiquate like a Jazz singer has his/her way of phrasing certain
words same in c&w.
NB: Bite the bullit son and ask the person you sent whatever to what they thought of your singing even if they hated it , if your commited you can at least get to a stage of sounding palatable.
TD
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 10:31pm
Its definitely about being out of tune when the treble is more audible than the bass, and not about tone. I assume when I'm singing I hear the bass frequencies in my voice, but then when played back the speakers are somehow bringing out higher frequencies I wasn't hearing when I sang. I imagine like any acoustic instrument (in fact probably even more than most other acoustic instruments) the human voice will produce a range of sounds on any one sung note with all sorts of sub tones and harmonics coming through almost imperceptibly. And that these could then be enhanced or subdued depending on the speakers and settings played back through etc. What that all means for my singing though I'm not really sure. Thanks for the suggestions on apps etc. I'd considered having a few singing lessons to improve my demos before I'd even discovered this problem so might try that route. What's the betting the singing teacher will never have come across the issue. The sound engineer at the studios we used recently certainly hadn't. I'm never a simple case me I just wanted to see if anyone else had experienced it and found any ways to work around it.
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 10:48pm
I don't know about tuning issues but sending something to someone whether a prospective bandmate or client is a minefield these days. I have stuff that sounds great through my laptop or if I feed it through the stereo or telly but sounds awful through some mobile devices and sadly thats very likely what a lot of recipients will be using. I think Profusia I wouldn't worry too much as we're all at the mercy of these phenomena and can all just hope that listeners are savvy to the limitations of speakers the size of 5 pence pieces. With your particular issue have you tried recording in the first place with the mids pushed and the treble rolled off? It might sound a touch muddy but might sound more consistent on different setups.
Tuesday 10 Jan 2017, 10:54pm
Thanks for the suggestion - I'm not sure how to record that way but I had wondered about trying some EQ on the vocal tracks - except I'm a bit of a novice on the mixing and mastering black arts. Could well be worth a go though. Perhaps I'll be able to filter out the offending frequencies with some trial and error.
Wednesday 11 Jan 2017, 5:27pm
Do you hear the same thing when you listen to someone else through the naughty speakers?
I'd try fiddling with the the eq using a multiple band eq, and monitoring through the naughty ones.
Thursday 12 Jan 2017, 5:00pm
No I can't say I do - or at least not to anything like the same extent. The only other time I've noticed something is when listening to a vocalist that I perform with sometimes where his vocals sound excellent live at the gig, but then when I listen back to the videos they just never sound so rich, and maybe also not so in tune. But I'd need to have a more focussed listen to be sure. I'm now coming to the assumption that any modern commercial recordings are likely to have been EQ'd to perfection at least on any vocalists that share my stage harmonics.
Thursday 12 Jan 2017, 7:05pm
I hope you find a working solution. Will you let me know?
Thursday 12 Jan 2017, 10:47pm
Sure, if I make any progress I'll try to update the thread with the details.
Friday 13 Jan 2017, 10:27am
Singers will often not sound as good at a gig then they did on the recorded blue print , the voice is harder to control then other instruments cause your not holding it and its settings volume and tones are looked away from sight.
Lots of material out there of famous vocalists sounding very frail on renditions of their recorded rock hits. It seems natural to me that singers will ocasionally hit bum notes , break in song or start sounding worn out.
A compination of bad vocal tech , bad diet,stress and over work. As long as the audiance don't hear anything overtly rank then it's working. I'm sure all instruments are touched up recorded in a specfic way.
I'm sure part of the appeal of Zeppelin was down to masterful recording and distribution of sounds within the song.
Profusia cant remember if you said you are laying your tracks through direct bog standard recording audio or using some software app , lots of apps out there that settings for vocal recodring which can be adjusted once the recording has been done. Done if you have a PC or a mac or something. But I find Garageband is helpful.
A software package would give you all the tools you need to play around with the vocal recording and get your thing to a satisfactory level.
It might be conducive if you can upload it to SC so we can see what hear what your on about and make some informed comments about the specfics of your OP.
TD
Friday 13 Jan 2017, 4:34pm
Thanks for the thoughts. That's kind of a different phenomenon though - I'm not even going to talk about what I'd sound like singing live at a gig. Did it once - think that was once too many!
Have sung at a recording studio to give the rhythm section a vocal line to react to. Mostly just one or two takes and not trying to hone or finesse the vocals at all. Didn't sing well, but sounded better live, than replayed through the monitors. But then removed vocals and recorded myself at home. Rode NT1a condenser mic, Focusrite 18i8 interface. Reaper DAW on Macbook Air. Can obviously relax and get better takes and sound pretty ok (for me) through the bassy cans, or speakers with treble low and bass high, but awful through other cans or speakers at more balanced settings. Never going to be a singer though - just intrigued and perplexed by the phenomenon. Will have a look at uploading something to Soundcloud and maybe experimenting with EQ etc etc and will update the thread - will take me a bit of time though.
Friday 20 Jan 2017, 8:33pm
I'm not sure if the gear I have would enable me to put EQ between mic and DAW. Maybe that's something I could ask about next time I'm in the studio which should be next month. It feels like it would go against the grain though as you'd kind of have to get it spot on right first and every time as I don't imagine you can take the EQ off once its recorded. Seems to me better to just get the best possible recording of the natural voice and then use whatever effects necessary to optimise it afterwards. But I'm not even a novice so I'm happy to learn and stand to be corrected.
I wasn't saying higher frequencies were tiny or weak. Just that through some speakers higher frequencies come to the fore which I hadn't heard when singing (and don't hear through some speakers) and that those higher frequencies seem out of tune when the lower ones don't.
Saturday 21 Jan 2017, 7:00pm
So, I promised to update the thread if I made any progress. Well I can't say I have, or rather I can't say WHY I have but...
I re-recorded some vocals this afternoon because I'd done some editing on the recorded rhythm section tracks, and thought while at it I'd try playing with some EQ (post recording).
The thing is, even dry, with no effects at all, and played through 2 sets of headphones, internal speakers, and largish external powered computer speakers, my voice isn't sounding as bad as it was - or maybe its just my ears today. Perhaps I've lost my higher end frequencies!
Anyway here is a short snippet for anyone who is interested. These are...
Dry (no effects at all)
EQ on voice
Reverb on voice
EQ AND Reverb on voice
https://soundcloud.com/the-jazz-collective/silly-me-snippet-no-eq-no-reverb
https://soundcloud.com/the-jazz-collective/silly-me-snippet-eq-no-reverb
https://soundcloud.com/the-jazz-collective/silly-me-snippet-reverb-no-eq
https://soundcloud.com/the-jazz-collective/silly-me-snippet-eq-reverb
Not really looking for feedback - just said I'd update the thread so am doing so.
P.S. still sounds horribly out of tune through my iPad's internal speakers whether EQ'd or not!
Monday 23 Jan 2017, 2:38pm
Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, as I just skimmed through all the posts on this thread but...
I do remember hearing something on this a while back.
The reason we don't like the way we sound when heard on a recording, or that we don't think that we sound 'anything like that' is because we are not hearing our internal 'voice' (no, not those voices in your head).
It's to do with the fact that your voice resonates in your head and your ears pick that up and blend it with what is coming out of your mouth. As the internal voice is muffled and resonates through your head it is full of low frequencies (bass).
This would explain why speakers with less bass give you a different sound than you are expecting and possibly the higher frequncies that you hear from your voice may either make you think it is out of tune, or that it actually was in the first place, just disguised as it blended with other frequencies in the track.
I won't comment on whether you are actually in or out of tune. You either are or you aren't, speaker selection will not alter that fact, I believe that an 'A' (@440 Hz) should be the same through any speaker type (although I'm sure there are some 'experts' on here that will prove me wrong).
Hope this helps!
Kol.
Monday 23 Jan 2017, 5:59pm
@Kkoldov...
No mate you're not wrong, 440hz is 440hz.... this can be affected by things like the doppler effect which will effectively 'stretch time' slowing it down if moving away from the listener but that also changes its pitch so 'relatively speaking' (good pun eh;)) the listener will hear a different pitch...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4OnBYrbCjY if you need an explanation.
Monday 23 Jan 2017, 7:17pm
I agree with the "internal voice" effect, and have tried various things like one can on one can off, cupped hand to ear, finger in one ear, etc. Whilst these things can have some effect on how much I sing in or out of tune, they don't prevent the phenomenon discussed. 'A' 440Hz probably should sound identical through any speaker, but the human voice doesn't sing just one pure note - there are all sorts of subtones and harmonics that come through in greater or lesser proportion so saying that you either are or aren't in tune is an over simplification in my opinion. Regardless of this I know I don't sing in tune (at least not well enough to perform publicly), but wasn't looking for how to fix that. Not here anyway.
Thanks for the input everyone - I'm retiring from the thread now, exhausted.
Tuesday 24 Jan 2017, 12:50pm
I can't sing for a toffee, to the internal voice effect does not apply.
try recording you spoken voice an play back... we all sound different to what we think we sound like.
But in my home studio I use the Nectar 2 (from izotope) vst pluggin it sorts EQ, Compression, Sibilance, and Pitch correction i.e. an all in one package, you can use the presets or tweak to your harts content.
it's a bit pricey but well worth the cost.
The pitch correction part of the software may even work well live, but you need to bee near the pitch
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